it is motivation not training that is needed but the iraqs have to be motivated from within. you cannot bring about change at the end of a foreign gun barrel.

I have spoken with many Iragis in chat rooms and they feel this is more for George Bush's benefit than for the people of Iraq, so they will not cooperate till we are gone. Then they will assist in the fight for their own country.

The Iraqi's can't have it both ways, either they want the USA to help establish a stable and secure country or it doesn't. As long as certain Shia and Sunni groups hold out for total control of a post occupation Iraq there will be no peace, no matter what we do. Let's give them 3 more months to prove they are serious about controlling the militias and Anbar. If not, we are out of there and the full fledged civil war can begin to settle matters without further loss of US lives.

We have given the Iraqis the opportunity to get ahold on things in their country over the last 3 long years. They seem content to wallo in secretarian violence while their leaders squabble over petty issues. We should pull out. The Sunnis will rise back to power and crush the new freedoms of the Shia majority (their loss for not helping us). It will return back to what it once was. We tried. Enough is enough let them solve it themselves.

A CASE FOR ALLOWING CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ

The I.S.G. report is D.O.A. It's based on the false premise that it's in Syria and Iran's interest to stop the chaos in Iraq. That simply IS NOT THE CASE.
What IS in both Iran and Syria's interest is for the U.S. to be tied down for as long as possible in Iraq, preferably for decades, allowing them time to consolidate power in Lebanon, and acquire nuclear weapons.

To turn the tables what's needed is PLAN - C which consists of the following:

1) PULL OUT NOW, PERCIPITISLY, and allow the inevitable sectarian civil war in Iraq to begin. A raging sectarian civil war on the borders of Iraq's neighbors will tie THEM down for the next decade or more, as they struggle to keep that sectarian strife from crossing borders and widening into a regional conflict that could consume ALL of their nations.

2) While Iraq's neighbors are completely tied up trying to contain the violence in Iraq, we could be rebuilding and rearming our military so that the threat of the U.S. repeating recent history by invading either Iran or Syria to achieve "regime change", (and then leave their country in utter chaos), becomes not only plausible, but such a nightmare scenario that neither Iran nor Syria can afford to so much as contemplate continuing down the bellicose path they are both so enamored with today.

It's time to turn the tables on our enemies. Time to force THEM to try to find a way toward peace, while we sit on the sidelines gathering strength, rather than allowing them to continue trying to maintain the status quo of endless violence, that allows them to stay in power by pointing to ever present "zionists and foreign enemies" as a means of distracting their people from fact that they are ruled by corrupt despots.

It looks like the bad guys welcome the report findings, too:

"The report proves that this is the era of Islam and of jihad," said Abu Ayman, a senior leader of Islamic Jihad in the northern West Bank town of Jenin.

"[With the Iraq Study Group report], the Americans came to the conclusion that Islam is the new giant of the world and it would be clever to reduce hostilities with this giant. In the Quran the principle of the rotation is clear and according to this principle the end of the Americans and of all non-believers is getting closer," Abu Ayman said.

According to Abu Abdullah, a senior leader of Hamas' so-called military wing, Baker's report is a victory for Islam brought about by "Allah and his angels."

"It is not just a simple victory. It is a great one. The big superpower of the world is defeated by a small group of mujahedeen (fighters). Did you see the mujahedeens' clothes and weapons in comparison with the huge individual military arsenal and supply that was carrying every American soldier?" exclaimed Abu Abdullah, who is considered one of the most important operational members of Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Martyrs Brigades, Hamas' declared "resistance" department.

"It is no doubt that Allah and his angels were fighting with them (insurgents) against the Americans. It is a sign to all those who keep saying that America, Israel and the West in general cannot be defeated on the ground so let us negotiate with them," Abu Abdullah said.

Abu Abdullah said following a withdrawal from Iraq, the U.S. will be defeated on its own soil.

"America must understand that with anti-American governments in Latin America and with Islam growing and reinforcing, including in the U.S. itself, the next step would be a total defeat on their (American) land, not a relative one like they are facing in Iraq," he said.

Abu Nasser, the second-in-command of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades terror group in the West Bank, called the Iraq Study Group report a "great victory" from which other jihadist organizations can learn.

"The Iraqi victory is a great message and lesson to the revolutionary and freedom movements in the world. Just to think that this resistance is led by hundreds of Sunni fighters who defeated hundreds of thousands of Americans, British and thousands of soldiers who belong to the puppet regime in Baghdad. What would be the situation if the Shiites will decide to join the resistance?" commented Abu Nasser.

Now that the sectarian militants will also know what our plans will be, there will be escalating violence in the weeks leading up to any eventual pullout date. They then can declare victory for defeating the US and encourage others to take up arms against the government in Baghad. I don't see how this mess in Iraq disappears just because the US does, particularly if the Iraqi army and police can't be properly purged of insurgents.

I say its high time the US engaged in targeted commando raids, long term intelligence operations, and local agents to root them all out over the long run. Or if not possible, restrict international and/or US forces to guarding key infrastructure and facilities.

And where are the moderate Islamists in all this? I thought they most of all have the ability to keep fair relations between Shiites and Sunnis.

It angers me that the Iraqis feel no good has come from toppling Saddam and his regime. It angers me even more that those Iraqis, at present time, are right! While the commoners no longer feel trapped inside the walls of dictatorship, they are still confined to the strife of living in a perpetual warzone.

However, the radical Islamists feel that they have "won" this war. It is sad that they feel blowing up civilians by the hundres on a daily basis is a tactic of defeating foreign occupation. How do these kinds of activities benefit the better good of Islam and Iraq? How does burying innocent women and children in mass graves by the thousands hurt the U.S.?

I think more than anything our occupation was the mistake in this war, not our invasion. Who can forget the looks of joy and praise we received from the Iraqis the day that statue of Saddam was brought down? If we just would have planned a quick escape then, and let the Iraqis use American tools as needed at their request to HELP, not force, them to rebuild their government and security, then we would still be viewed as liberators, not criminals.

The comments by hamas and others is your traditional rhetoric they use to incite their unnatural cause.
It's sad that it took a commission of has beens(because the bush admin apparently couldn't do it themselves) this long to put in black and white what has been obvious for a long time. One of the biggest questions I have is why we haven't had dialogue with Syria and Iran esspecialy the latter. I'd like to think if we had just been open minded from the get go this war may have had a different result, of course we'll never know.
Our inability or rather our unwillingness to deal with Iran is the usual contradictive matter we have with our foreign policy. A good example would be Cuba. We deal with one of the worst animalks in the world China, and yet we manage to seclude Cuba and for what? Failed policies from over 40 years ago? Are we not mending ties with Vietnam today? Then why not Cuba, why not Iran? It seems there's some political behind the scenes going on, nothing knew here though.
In closing I hope they do the right thing. I just hope it's not to late.

Two more years I say again! Lets become one and change the world as one.!. Gore won't get cheated this time around!!!

The only Iraqis that want us there are the ones we put into office.

We gave our trust to a man who refuses to take options as serious possibilities of action. I'm tired of his blindness, even those without much sight can tell when the lights go out, you turn in.

1. The Iraqi government has no constituency. Therefore...
2. The Iraqi army has no allegiance to the Iraqi government. Therefore...
3. It is pointless to attempt to "stand up" the Iraqi army because it has nothing to fight for.
Because...
4. Allegiance in Iraq belongs to those sectarian militias that provide safety and vengeance to the neighborhoods and villages they represent.
Therefore...
5. We should leave Iraq as soon as possible because whatever happens there will happen regardless of our departure. The only difference is how many troops we lose by staying on a fool's errand.

I am writing this because I feel these are thoughts worth reading, contemplating, forwarding, and acting on.

Today we are sitting in an America which has once again been "Hoodwinked" by the media and by the Iraq Insurgents. Yes, dummies. The insurgents wanted the Stand Fast for Americanism Republicans out of power, and the woosie Leftist Democrats in power on the "Hill" because they were already talking about telling them when the soldiers would be coming out of Iraq, and doing it soon and leaving the country of Iraq to be run by the Moslem religious zealots who order the bombings, preach martyrdom for those who blow themselves up, and let them run the country as a terrorist state dedicated to radical Muslim ideals, including the Taliban and AlQeida, and aligning with radical Iran to form a massive, atomic weapon holding terrorist state. Read Mien Kamph sometime, as well as the writings of Lenin, and then study how Stalin bastardized Lenin's teachings, and you'll see the roadmap they are following. However, you'll have to the research yourself, because the Media will not admit their Leftist leanings, and claim that showing any such revelations would not benefit the country. Bull! They don't to help anyone realize they played right into the insurgents' hands, plans, and their program of destroying any chance of Iraq being a Free Democratic State in the midst of radical Islam countries. This is a condition that Syria, Turkey, Palestine, Afghanistan, even Saudi Arabia, and especially Iran cannot risk. That is why they aren't really fighting the US, but instead find it easier to blow up Iraqis, to kill the women and children, assassinate the political powers, and then blame it on the US. We removed three Hussein's, only to see them replaced by hundreds or thousands of gutless, psychopathic, sociopaths who get to kill, rape, and play out all of their horrific sadistic fantasies, and get paid for it, mercenaries who will kill whomever doesn't pay the top dollar.

I was thinking the other day, in angry frustration and distaste, why the HE -- do the Iraqi people tolerate the murder of so many of their people by outside mercenaries, paid for by rich Shiites in their country, simply out of greedy, sociopathic, controlling behavior, only barely thinly veiled to even their supposed Muslim Brothers as an act of "Devotion to Islam and the teachings of Mohammed." Then I heard that the Pope had finally made a statement telling the truth about these murderous acts, and I was so thankful that the leader of one of the great religions of the world had stood up to the sorry S.O.B.'s who were purveying this hatred and violence, raising children to hate Christians, only because we feel that women have worth, that murder is not a form of worship, and that All Men, Women, and Children have the right to make a better life for THEMSELVES, instead of existing only so others can reap benefits from their misery, as did Sadam and his sons, and as did Hitler and Stalin and Mussolini, and as do the supposed "Holy Men" of Islam. I almost felt liberated, as if the Pope's words would bring others to the fray, and help stop the insanity going on in the Arab World. I was joyous.

Then some other Sociopaths in Africa, wanting to prove their worth to some rich Muslim A-- Hole somewhere, or perhaps already paid by that same forenamed Hole, shot an OCTOGENERIC NUN IN THE BACK FOUR TIMES, and her bodyguard (Why should a Nun require a bodyguard to protect her, if the Islamic World really does stand for peace and brotherly love?)

The "Sure ain't no Pope John from Poland" Pope almost tripped over his tongue trying to run for cover while apologizing. Some Islamic Leaders are now saying he didn't make a good enough apology. I guess that means that according to some Self-appointed Islamic Religious Mucky-Mucks, more Nuns must die. And then I saw why the Third World War isn't only being fought right now, but also why we in the Christian World are losing.

I especially include in that statement Canada, France, Russia, Spain, Japan, and the rest of the supposedly STRONG SUPER POWERS. France was hit, not because they wouldn't let school girls wear their Head Scarfs, nor the Russians because of their treatment of people in the Balkans, nor Japan or Spain because of their treatment of Muslims, nor the Philippines because of their laws, but only because there are Muslims in their countries who want to be the Dictator/s of those respective countries, or at least regions thereof. It is also because they have shown signs of weakness, of vulnerability, just as the Jews did in Germany. That is also why the President of Iran, a classic small statured sociopath in his own right, can go on National News with Brian Jennings and say the Holocaust Never Happened, and if it did, so what, the Palestinians have gripes too. The Liberal Pacifying Idiots in the USA would just as happily give in to the War M ongers of Islam if it would get the them elected and back in control of the US government. I am afraid that the world's leaders are going to keep relenting, appeasing, and backing down, until we will HAVE to stop being the ultra-polite, ultra-politically correct little countries, and end up in a war the like of which NO-ONE can even imagine, unless they lived through the genocide of the Gas-Chambers, the Death March on Bataan, the massacres in Malasia, Laotian and/or Vietnamese Reprisals, Chinese massacres by the Japanese, and Kurds Killed Chemically by the very same Sadam that the world says we should have just "left alone". The worst fighting going into Baghdad was at the mercenary (read AlQeida) training camp just south of the city. Oh yeah, before I forget, how about all of those beheadings by the so-called "Volunteer Warriors" in Iraq. If their so volunteer, how come all of the ones they kill are wearing Armani, Gucci, and Rolexes, and have pockets full of money, usually a whole lot more American Folding Money than any of our own soldiers have.

I'm tired of it. I'm sick of it. I'm fed-up with it. I just don't know what to do about it except to try to get others to think honestly about it. Don't believe me? Go to the Al Jazierra(sp.?) web site. Go ahead, you obviously have your computer on. Go on and look at the beheadings, at the suicide bombings, at the celebrations in the Islamic World over the anniversary of 9-11, and while you're at it, look at Krakau, Auswicz(sp?.)?), Bali, the Twin Towers, and on and on. Then come back and tell me: "It's okay. It's just a small faction. It's not worth being at war over. Let's tell them that we'll pull out in 4 months, if they can just wait that long before they do their next horrific deed. You may as well say, "Let's all bend over toward Mecca!"

Tell me your thoughts, send 'em soon.

The Iraq invasion was the best thing to ever happen to radical muslim terrorists! It gave them a rallying point, a local target, and grass-roots support from Iraqis who are pissed at the US for destorying their nation and being unable to rebuild it.

Many will blame Iraqis for 'not caring enough', but the real fault is on those who authorized this war. Overwhelming evidence that the Iraqis would not embrace this idea were given and ignored.

If I destroy someone's house and then start rebuilding a new one without asking...they're gonna be pissed. They don't care that you're going to give them a nicer house...they didn't want the old one destroyed. They want you off their property...they will sabotage your construction, and once you leave build it the way THEY WANT.

It's that simple. There is no reason nations should not use the same rules for interaction as we apply to interpersonal relationships.

Perhaps I have become jaded, but why should America care any longer what Iraq thinks about anything? We have been training their troops for three years now as our own die in the desert sun...if they have not gotten by now, they ARE NOT GOING TO GET IT.

Let's be honest here...The Baker Report and its recommendations are nothing more than "Stay The Course on Steroids" a last gasp effort by a Bush family faithful to give Junion one more bite at the apple by fooling the American public one more time, getting us yet again to march in Goose Step to Bush's desires...thanks, but no thanks, the time has come to pull the plug, and to some degree, the Iraqi's share a great deal of the blame for this sad failure.

It amazes me that anyone would still believe anything this administration says. They have not been correct on anything, starting with the infamous "Misson Accomplished" onward. Why are they so sure there would be raging sectarian violence if we were to leave? Maybe there would be maybe there wouldn't be. Is it not a possibilty that if we were to leave that they would settle their differences and get on with their lives? The only sure reason for staying is to save face for this incompetent administration. Bush wants to keep our troops there until he is out of office so he can blame everything on the next president.

We can not continue to support the war in Iraq.Yes it would benefit the U.S. for some type of democratic
goverment to be established but, it is clear that is not going to happen. If the people of Iraq want the freedom that we have given them with the blood our our soldiers not to mention the billons of dollars.
They must make that choice now and take control.

we didn't put any Iraqis in office

Iraqis appear to be reacting favorably to at least SOME of the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group report,

We Never Seem to See It Coming
By
Jim Castagnera
Attorney at Large
“Life is what happens when you’re making plans.” So said John Lennon, who never saw Mark David Chapman coming on December 8, 1980. Twenty-six years ago I was a beleaguered law student who seldom saw anything coming. As the eighties proceeded apace, I sure never saw the computer revolution, even though it was screaming down the track like a locomotive. I’ve read recently that a $5000 investment in Microsoft in 1985 would translate into millions today. Ah, well…
Smarter people by far have shared my lack of foresight. For instance, neither Henry Kissinger nor Zbigniew Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter’s hot-shot national security advisor, predicted the sudden end of the “Evil Empire,” and along with the Soviet Union, the Cold War, in 1989-1990. Who really expected Apartheid to end in South Africa without an armed uprising followed by a bloodbath? Still, it happened.
Now, the national debate is driven by the Iraq Commission Report. With Democratic majorities in the House and Senate, a beleaguered Mr. Bush must choose among a wide spectrum of policy options… not unlike a law student looking for the correct outcome of a difficult case. Senator John McCain, a Vietnam vet, seems to favor sending more troops to try and win; I find it instructive that a former POW takes this stance. On the other side of the aisle, many Democrats seem to want out now. The commission is somewhere around the middle, calling for withdrawals in early 2008… maybe.
Philosopher George Santayana also said something worth repeating here: “Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.” I believe it was 60s peace activist Jerry Rubin who quipped, “Those who do study history are doomed to repeat it.” This goes hand-in-hand with “The generals are always fighting the last war.” Thus, in 1939 the French, recalling the trench warfare of 1914-1918, felt secure behind their Maginot Line. German Blitzkrieg proved them tragically wrong.
Since 1974 American military policy has reflected our ignominious withdrawal from Southeast Asia. The Powell Doctrine calls for quick incursions with overwhelming force. The doctrine came up trumps in the first Gulf war. Today, more than three years after reentering Iraq, our war looks a lot more like Vietnam than Gulf One.
Does that mean we must assume another inevitable, ignominious withdrawal? Or is there, perhaps, a lesson to be learned from the Soviet Union and South Africa?
As Lennon didn’t know the hour of his death and Henry K. didn’t know the hour of the Berlin Wall’s demise, nobody knows the answer to those questions either. The Vietnam War doesn’t offer that answer. Neither do the platitudes of George Santayana nor the quips of Jerry Rubin. All we have to go on are best evidence, guts and faith.
Nonetheless, am I Pollyanna if I add yet another question, asking if an extraordinary opportunity presents itself in the Middle East at this moment in history? There, at least, is a question worth asking.
A U.S. prepared to “stay the course” --- something Mr. Bush no longer dares to say --- just might be able to broker a lasting settlement in the region. Yes, that will mean dealing with arch enemies and perennial troublemakers, including Iran, Syria, Hamaas and Hesbola. At least the conversation can occur in their own neighborhood, so long as Uncle Sam remains encamped in the Green Zone.
One thing about studying history, whether you liked it or not when in school, is it gives a bit of perspective… a touch of temporal depth. We desperately need this in our age of Internet access, text messages, instant replays and 30-second sound bites.
The Cold War had a 45-year run. The seemingly disastrous decade in Vietnam should be viewed in perspective as part of this bigger picture… a set-back in a long, ultimately successful national struggle.
The same might be said of the past three years in Iraq. I don’t know. I was buying airlines stocks when I should have been investing in Microsoft. I’ve never seen around a corner in my life. Still, I subscribe to Santayana over Rubin. We must study history. The real trick is to know which lesson to draw from our studies. All this column urges is that we take a long view of the present war in Iraq and consider the Pollyanna-ish possibility of a positive outcome in terms of an American Mid-East policy for the 21st century.

I think this blog and much of what the media presents tells us very little about what is going on. Too much of the focus is on the violence in Bagdad, a city of six million people. The media, both in the Middle East and the west, feed negative reflections to both Iraqis and Americans creating an unnecessary divide.

Never seen/read heard things so backwards. Why should the Iraqi's support us now? We come in, dispose of Saddam, but than proceed to make a mess.
Why would they want us to stay?

The Iraqis don't trust us now, nor should they. We need to make things right, and following the Iraq Study Group is exactly what will not work.

Us, Americans, most recently and most notably Jimmy Carter, are sending the extremists all the signals they need to know their tactics... are working.

Today they strap bombs with nails on their chests, and blow-up themselves and innocent people around them. Tomorrow they will be strapping nuclear devices on their chests and devasting whole cities. What makes you think they would not, or that it will not happen here?

America don't listen to those that present Iraqi statements out of context.

Stand up and fight. It will do freedom, democracy, and personal liberty, good in the end.

I think things are going as planed in Iraq we come in screw everything up then leave mission accomplished

I find it interesting that one VP of Iraq says the report is a good thing but the President of Iraq is just horrified about it. What the President of Iraq needs to do is be a man and take control.

I also found interesting the Kurdish leader's comment about not needing more people to train the Iraqi Army.....I have a simple answer to that. When the US soldiers come to get them there needs to be someone there making them get out of bed and go to work. My son didn't get to stay in bed......and when they got over to get the Iraqi's that is exactly what happened---they didn't want to go on missions.....So how are the Iraqi's supposed to secure the country if they can't get up in the morning?